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Losing faith in Nintendo


xdaniel
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Might be more like blog material, might end up as too much ranting, whatever...

 

I am losing faith in Nintendo. Not in the business sense, as in not believing the Wii U will sell or somesuch, but in their handling of franchises. Losing faith in their will to experiment. In their will to cater for more than Mario or Zelda players, as well as in their will to cater to non-Japanese players.

 

Think back to E3 2004. What springs to mind for you? For me, it's Reggie, it's kicking ass and taking names, it's the last part of his intro "...and we're about making games". To mind come the trailers for the likes of Metroid Prime 2 or Resident Evil 4. To mind also comes the introduction of the DS, which was as much of a gamble that they initially positioned it as a third pillar besides GCN and Game Boy. Obviously it was so successful that they got rid of the GB, although "laid to rest" might be a nicer choice of words. And, of course, "I am not Link, but I do know him" - Miyamoto with sword and shield in hand, right after the room exploded after the surprise announcement of a new, realistic Zelda game for the Cube, which we now know as Twilight Princess.

 

Nowadays, tho? They're playing it safe. They might still be experimenting and gambling with hardware, to an extend (after already carving out a niche for touchscreens 8 years ago, then it getting widened by Nintendo and certain cellphone manufacturers), but on the software front... at least for the big budget retail titles, it feels like all we ever get from them are Mario games, as well as maybe Zelda and Donkey Kong and such. Oh the bloody Mario games. Granted, they're usually good, but do we need so many of them? New Super Mario Bros. 2, New Super Mario Bros. U, Super Mario 3D Land, Super Mario Galaxy, Super Mario Galaxy 2, New Super Mario Bros. Wii. And that's on top of my head, and in the last, what? Five years? And that's disregarding sports titles and Mario Karts.

 

Additionally (again, all how I personally feel) the games are getting easier and easier, unless there's something broken about them that makes them unplayable when not constantly mending them - hate me for it if you must, but I'm looking at Skyward Sword's controls here. They are awful. Also broken: Mario Kart 7's AI, but I already ranted about that in another thread. Games that require actual skill, constant application of said skill, those are getting rarer and rarer these days. Thinking of F-Zero here, again as ranted about before.

 

Now, the thing about Japanese and non-Japanese players... two things I'd like to mention here.

 

One: Japanese storytelling and characterizations are great where they fit and when they're well done, like in many JRPGs. They don't fit in something like... say... Metroid. Not when it contradicts (mostly) everything we've seen or heard about a character before. Backstories and stuff are fine, but Sakamoto's storytelling ruined Other M. Some other issues didn't help the game either, most of which go back to the point of games getting easier (overzealous auto-aiming, energy and missile recharging, etc., etc. plus a freaking tutorial). Better not open that can of worms any further again, tho, enough has been said about that.

 

Two: That's obviously not their fault, but from all I've heard, Japanese are prone to motion sickness, which is why ex. 2D Mario games there sell better than 3D Mario games. That might be a reason why there's not much in terms of really fast gameplay in Nintendo games anymore, again thinking of F-Zero. F-Zero GX sold just over 100.000 copies in Japan, while it sold at least 250.000 in each, the US and the PAL territories, because it became a Player's Choice title there, according to Wikipedia at least.

 

Argh, I gotta stop ranting. I don't want to come across as an old, naysaying fool stuck in the past or somesuch, but all those developments over the last 6+ years are troubling. I'm missing the Nintendo of the GCN and GBA era, that of the N64 and Game Boy era, that of even earlier. I mean, if they ex. hadn't given one quirky pair of games on a nearly obsolete system a chance in the mid-90s, the world would be without a certain franchise of 649 monsters...

 

...alright, I'm done, it's late and I'm tired and I really need to stop myself from writing more nonsense. Awaiting either indifference, or hate for that Skyward comment.

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First off, you're not alone on not liking the motion controls of Skyward Sword. I found them infuriating as well. :)

 

I strongly agree with you, Nintendo feels like they're coasting. But I dont think that they're focusing on their core franchises to the exclusion of others because that would imply their core stuff is continuing to get better. I'm not a big Mario fan and as such havent played anything past Sunshine so I cant comment on that.

 

However, in my option their Zelda games have gotten worse with each release. The last truly great Zelda was Wind Waker... from there we've had a hollow Ocarina of Time rehash in Twilight Princess and a regression to the Mario 64 days in Skyward Sword. In my option having an explorable overworld is a key component to any Zelda game, so to throw that out completely just boggles my mind. Same reason I thought the two DS Zelda games were appallingly bad, I know a few people who dismissed those constraints and the other flaws to being a result of using a handheld system, but that argument is simply fase when you consider the gameboy era Zelda handhelds were at or above ALttP.

 

I think, though, that Nintendo is simply a casualty of a bigger issue. The cost of producing games in general has risen to a point where publishers dont want to put anything out that's even remotely likely to fail. In an attempt to pull in bigger crowds, many companies are putting in less effort and watering down their ideas because they know that people will buy them like that. Saves them money on development as well, so their profit margin is bigger in addition to merely being an attempt to get a bigger crowd.

 

I've found that many games produced from the start of this console generation onward just havent appealed to me, and it didnt hit me until very recently when I started playing through a PC game called System Shock 2. The company behind Bioshock largely billed the game as System Shock's spiritual successor, but its clear that Bioshock is actually heavily watered down. There's no true inventory like in System Shock, there's no stats, weapons dont jam, ammo and health is plentiful, research is greatly simplified... they took the great gameplay of a 90s hidden gem and removed anything that gave the game challenge in the name of attracting those with low attention spans. Its not just this one example, pretty much everything out there is homogenized to the point of requiring barely any effort because it means more people would be able to play them, which in turn means more money.

 

Nintendo ties into this in that they found a new audience in the Wii, and sales numbers tell them that if they want to keep making money at the rate they currently are, they need to put their other games on level playing fields. They also need to rely on existing brand awareness. Therefore, more Mario, more Zelda, more Wii Sports. They cant bring out F-Zero, because most people have no idea what that is. Its not a guaranteed seller.

 

I think the only real solution for this is if some big crash happens, like Pacman did for Atari back in the early 80s. And I think that road is approaching, given how said Wii audience is turning more to touchscreen based gaming in their cell phones and tablets. Once that audience leaves, Nintendo will either be forced to go back to their more experimental roots or die a slow death as they burn through their money. Of course, that may only bring them up to the position of other companies floundering with their yearly generic and mindless first person shooters. Not sure we'll see an end to that one any time soon.

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this probably isn't any of my buisness, but "losing faith in nintendo"?

 

what this current topic is saying is basically "I no longer like nintendo", all because you claim it already hit it's prime...

 

 

so you are saying that now that the games aren't what they used to be, you now have a hate for nintendo? After enjoying so many clasic titles, you are saying nintendo is terrible? That's the exact same thing as eating your favorite flavour of chips, but when you are down to the crumbs, you say you never want to eat those chips again. The quality may be going down a little, and you may be displeased, but have a little patience. I'm sure they are making many great games, and will continue to do so, but saying you lost faith in nintendo because the games aren't what they used to be, is just like giving up on something half way through.

 

I'm sure nintendo will create something great in the future, but my opinion of this topic is that I do not agree, and that it will get better eventually

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To go with your chips analogy, it's more like that once I'm down to the crumbs of my favorite flavor, I go out to buy a new bag of them. However, I cannot do this because they don't offer my favorite flavor anymore. Instead, all they offer is a watered-down variant of the flavor I love, which I don't like as much, and a flavor I don't like at all. So I end up not buying any anymore, or at least buying far less than I used to.

 

As for patience, in certain respects, I've already had patience for years without ever being rewarded for it - the big one in that regard being F-Zero. The last one we got was GP Legend on the GBA, over eight years ago. This is the same timespan it took for a new Metroid game to materialize after Super Metroid.

 

And besides, if it came across as that I hate Nintendo now, that's not what I intended. If I hated them, I wouldn't have gotten a 3DS a month ago, and especially wouldn't have gotten a first-party game as my first game for it (MK7). "Losing faith" might've been too strong an expression, but I am seriously worried about the direction they're heading, in my opinion catering too much to the casual audience. Wanting to include everyone - young and old alike, no matter the gender, etc. - is a great idea, I'm all for that, and they've been doing well with that, but they seem to ignore their roots more and more. The Wii and DS were gambles that in the end payed off for them, but for the most part, they're just comfortably sitting on the success those two brought them. I don't think they've taken another gamble like that in the past several years, it's mostly been same old, same old.

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well, aren't you atleast glad they came out with the games to begin with? How would you feel if they never came out with those games in the first place? Are you glad they did?

 

all I am saying, is this isn't reason enough to feel that nintendo is going down hill.

 

 

 

If they got rid of mario, link, and the others, then I would sort of agree, but I am sure they will make more of the games that everybody has been waiting to see(like f-zero, and other great titles)

 

 

 

 

there is no way they can please everybody, and are currently trying their best to attempt to. Even the slightest glimmer of faith can become bright once more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

and one more thing about the chip thing... it's more like they came out with a "better" version of the flavor that is clearly not as great, you can still eat the older flavor, but you chose to not eat them anyway

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Uhm, ebil, if he's losing faith in Nintendo, that's what he believes. You don't have to get up in arms about it.

ANYWAYS, last night I was typing something up on my phone, but the damn thing froze and restarted on me before I could finish! Time to type it here on my computer:


I agree with a lot of your points, xdan. And, in fact, I'm losing a lot of faith in Nintendo, as well.

Let's face it: they're letting some of their best franchises die, and that is not okay with me at all. I haven't seen a proper Star Fox game in a very long time, and one never even released on the fucking

Wii, for crying out loud. No, Star Fox 64 3D doesn't count, since it's just a remake(with butchered voice acting, to boot). And as far as the Wii U goes? Well, from what I hear, we may not see Star Fox on there, either; Miyamoto is just throwing it around as a possibility(last I looked, anyways. may be different now).

 

And of course, let's not forget all other ignored franchises(F-Zero, like xdan brought up, just as an example).

I'm going to say it now, because I'm sick of hiding behind this stupid "Mario is so awesome!" guise:

Mario sucks. In recent years, the Mario games have sucked, and WILL suck for a long time; Nintendo milked that franchise beyond recovery, if you ask me, and for what?

Only to let other good franchises go ignored? I think they need to pound the nails in Mario's coffin, because the viewing is over, and it's time to ship him off to his burial site.

 

Now, about Zelda, I'm actually okay with this series. Each entry feels new, and fresh, and not as nearly played out as a Mario game.

But honestly, it annoys the fuck out of me that we can all expect the inevitable Mario and Zelda games on the Wii U, but the same cannot be said(inevitable, I mean) about other franchises, like Star Fox, F-Zero, Kid Icarus, and so on. We can only hope, and that's all.

 

And about the Wii U: in all honesty, I'm getting it just for third party games, with a few Nintendo titles here and there(thinking Zelda, and hopefully a Star Fox game, Metroid, ect.)

 

And I feel I need to comment on the bit about Skyward Sword's controls:

At first they were great, but I eventually grew tired of them. I mean, fuck, really? AI have to recalibrate my damn Wiimote almost every two minutes, whereas I've NEVER had that problem with other Motion Plus games. Ugh.

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blinx, I also decided to state my opinion

 

 

Everybody has their own biased opinion, it's only natural. Isn't topics like this meant to show your opinion?

 

 

although, it really doesn't matter to me if somebody dissagrees with my statement, but I still allowed to express mine. I'm not trying to sound mean, but it feels like I am not allowed to speak my opinion.

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I don't ever recall telling you not to speak your opinion(not that I even can tell you what to do, did people forget I'm not a staff member anymore?). I was just saying you don't have to get so up in arms about someone not sharing yours.

 

Basically, your post made it seem you were looking down on xdan for not liking Nintendo as much as you, which is, you know... meh?

 

That's how I interpreted it, at least.

 

-- Transmitted by an ancient satellite from across the cosmic web. Or my cellphone, if you prefer.

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The last great Mario game was Mario Galaxy (not Mario Galaxy 2), the last great Zelda game was probably Majora's Mask...

 

I don't like the way the Mario series is going since they seem to be spewing out the NSMB style games left, right and centre at the moment and they just aren't fun any more. I can't say I've played many memorable Nintendo games since we got the Wii because there haven't really been any. At this point I'm more looking forward to seeing new releases of old games than any actual new ones... hell, the only games I bought a 3DS for were OoT and Star Fox and I haven't played anything else on that console that has been any good.

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I think, though, that Nintendo is simply a casualty of a bigger issue. The cost of producing games in general has risen to a point where publishers dont want to put anything out that's even remotely likely to fail. In an attempt to pull in bigger crowds, many companies are putting in less effort and watering down their ideas because they know that people will buy them like that. Saves them money on development as well, so their profit margin is bigger in addition to merely being an attempt to get a bigger crowd.

 

I think you hit the nail right on the head with that one. It's like when they changed Dinosaur Planet into a Star Fox game. They could have created a new franchise entirely, but a Star Fox game is almost sure to sell. So instead, they crammed the ideas into Star Fox's universe and they had no place being there. I'm almost positive it would have been a much better game if they stuck with the original concept.

 

Not that I need much of an excuse to mention Kirby's Epic Yarn, but it's a perfect example of this destroying a game. Originally Nintendo started developing a game called Yarn Fluff. This had an original character called Prince Fluff as the protagonist, and if they had left things alone, it would have worked out very nicely. It was obviously geared towards a younger audience, and I do admit the yarn visuals were well done. Then they decided to turn it into a Kirby game, and that ruined everything horribly. There was nothing "Kirby" about it. Even the most basic core mechanics of the series like flying, inhaling stuff and ability copying were left out. You also are able to progress no matter what, if you fall down in a pit you're simply recovered. It felt like a huge slap in the face. As if they took a look at the game and decided that since it was "whimsical" it belonged in their Kirby franchise. It could have been a new game, but no. A new game wouldn't sell as well.

 

It's not like this is a new thing either. Doki Doki Panic became Super Mario Brothers 2, which strayed completely from the first game and the mechanics were quietly discarded and never brought up again. They went back to their original intent with Super Mario Brothers 3 and everything was fine from there. It just feels like such a shame, instead of a variety of games we get what feels like infinite rehashes because attaching a name to something will sell it.

 

The same thing could be said about existing games. Could you imagine Super Mario Galaxy if Nintendo took a chance and made it an original concept? You would get the beautiful music and atmosphere, the brilliant game engine that allows for jumping between planets and Rosalina's story. However, it could be so much more than that too. Could you imagine Galaxy if it was more than a series of platforming challenges? What if each planet was a world you could explore? What if instead of making powerups into something gimicky because they're just too overpowered and no longer fit in the series, they were something you could earn in an adventure around various worlds? Worlds that felt alive with various characters, and rewarded you for exploring. Not rewards like powerups and items, but things that are fun. I think there's just so much potential, but the current system works against it. "Why make great when good sells better?"

 

I don't feel like Nintendo's the only one who has this problem, I feel like it's a trend with the gaming industry in general unfortunately. I have no idea if we'll ever see it change, as long as money's the primary motivator to make games.

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I don't feel like Nintendo's the only one who has this problem, I feel like it's a trend with the gaming industry in general unfortunately. I have no idea if we'll ever see it change, as long as money's the primary motivator to make games.

 

And that's why I hate capitalism in its natural form. It's also why I've begun to shift my monetary support to more indie developers, because these are people who don't have a huge franchise to slap their game ideas onto, thus propagating the entire idea of gimmicks infecting the series we've all come to know and love. The big three console developers--Nintendo is hardly the only culprit, I will defend that notion vehemently--really seem to have lost sight of the fact that they're making video games for their fans. What's wrong with taking a risk when you have so much money stockpiled that even if it's a total flop, it barely makes a dent in your overall funds? Yet we constantly see successes like LIMBO, Bastion, and Minecraft that come from much smaller developer groups (or even the one-man team of Sinister Design) that take the same risks and end up seeing a huge payoff. Why is this? Because they make good games.

 

TL;DR

Games sell because they're good, not just because they're part of a giant franchise. Please re-learn this, Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony.

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TL;DR

Games sell because they're good, not just because they're part of a giant franchise. Please re-learn this, Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony.

 

Lord almighty, I'D KILL for a new Blinx game from Microsoft; those games were fun, and unique. Years later, no new games, and they let Blinx die, even after trying to make him their mascot. :(

 

-- Transmitted by an ancient satellite from across the cosmic web. Or my cellphone, if you prefer.

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There is only one rule you need to follow in order to be a modern-day gamer:

 

You have to be a fan of zombies and apocalyptic war.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am not a modern-day gamer.

 

 

 

Actually, if you think about it, Nintendo has given us exactly what we have wanted. I'm pretty sure you have all caught yourself talking shit about Nintendo at some point in your life about their games. Perhaps Super Mario Sunshine didn't live up to the expectations of it's predecessor, Super Mario 64. Perhaps Zelda Skyward Sword thought too far out of the box with their control setup. When you want something, Nintendo seems to always try and oblige. But it's always to an extreme that no one wants.

 

When the masses start chiming "I hate what Mario has become! I wish the games would go back to the way they were!", KRACHOW! Nintendo pops out NEW Super Mario! It was basically the same game as Super Mario 3, but with better graphics. And for a while, people were happy with that. But now Nintendo is pumping out a fourth installment of New Super Mario, and what are people doing? Complaining. They want their 3D Mario back!

 

When Wind Waker came out, people complained (Don't say you didn't. You may not think so now that you're older, but you did) that the art style was not Zelda appropriate. They wanted it to go back the the darker art-style of OoT and MM. KRACHOW! Out popped Twilight Princess! And when the hype of the new Zelda died down, they began complaining about it. "It was an OoT knock-off!" People shouted. "We want a new game, one that sets itself off from the other older Zeldas". WHAMO! Skyward Sword came out. And now, after the hype of the new Zelda, people are beginning to complain about it's short-comings as well.

 

I am not trying to sound holier then thou. I have done my fair share of bitching and moaning about Nintendo. For example, I am not that big a fan of the new Zelda at all, merely on the cosmetic... metrosexual... humans who live in the sky... and that moles live in the volcano and not gorons. I also am upset that they haven't made a sequel to Mario Sunshine, my favorite game! But there is a reason that Nintendo is beginning to fear any form of creativity. And that's because we won't like it.

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Inserting bolded red text into this quote to call you out on all of your nonfactual points.

There is only one rule you need to follow in order to be a modern-day gamer:

 

You have to be a fan of zombies and apocalyptic war.

 

You're wrong, and you obviously pay little to no attention to games now-a-days if you think that is true. I'm sorry, but I facepalmed.

 

 

 

 

 

I am not a modern-day gamer.

 

 

 

Actually, if you think about it, Nintendo has given us exactly what we have wanted. I'm pretty sure you have all caught yourself talking shit about Nintendo at some point in your life about their games. Perhaps Super Mario Sunshine didn't live up to the expectations of it's predecessor, Super Mario 64. Perhaps Zelda Skyward Sword thought too far out of the box with their control setup. When you want something, Nintendo seems to always try and oblige. But it's always to an extreme that no one wants.

 

When the masses start chiming "I hate what Mario has become! I wish the games would go back to the way they were!", KRACHOW! Nintendo pops out NEW Super Mario! It was basically the same game as Super Mario 3, but with better graphics. And for a while, people were happy with that. But now Nintendo is pumping out a fourth installment of New Super Mario, and what are people doing? Complaining. They want their 3D Mario back!

 

Is that so wrong? People have a right to request a series to go a certain route, but I for one, wish Nintendo would kill off Mario as a series completely. There's too much Mario, and barely any care is put into them now-a-days.

 

Also thought you'd like to know that not EVERYONE complains about the Mario games as you describe them to. The more you know.

 

When Wind Waker came out, people complained (Don't say you didn't. You may not think so now that you're older, but you did) that the art style was not Zelda appropriate. They wanted it to go back the the darker art-style of OoT and MM. KRACHOW! Out popped Twilight Princess! And when the hype of the new Zelda died down, they began complaining about it. "It was an OoT knock-off!" People shouted. "We want a new game, one that sets itself off from the other older Zeldas". WHAMO! Skyward Sword came out. And now, after the hype of the new Zelda, people are beginning to complain about it's short-comings as well.

 

Let me tell you right now, you have no way of knowing, or even TELLING people that you KNOW what they thought of Wind Waker. If you seriously think everyone thought on the same page, I don't know what to tell you except you're very wrong.

 

I loved Wind Waker when I was a kid, I was fascinated by its art style a lot, and never complained once. Wow, I must be some extraterrestrial being for thinking differently than the rest of the human race.

 

Also, for your information, my only problem with Skyward Sword is its controls, and I had ZERO problems complaining about them when the game was new. ZERO.

 

I am not trying to sound holier then thou. I have done my fair share of bitching and moaning about Nintendo. For example, I am not that big a fan of the new Zelda at all, merely on the cosmetic... metrosexual... humans who live in the sky... and that moles live in the volcano and not gorons. I also am upset that they haven't made a sequel to Mario Sunshine, my favorite game! But there is a reason that Nintendo is beginning to fear any form of creativity. And that's because we won't like it.

 

If you're not trying to sound "holier than thou", don't make so many points that basically say everyone thinks on the same exact page as you. And if you're going to complain about how everyone reacts to change in a series the same, you should first realize that not EVERYONE complains about it like you describe them to.

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Inserting bolded red text into this quote to call you out on all of your nonfactual points.

 

"I disagree, now shut up" seems to be a theme with you.

 

I'm merely stating what I've seen from reviews, from what I've heard from other gaming forums like the Smash World forum for example, and from other places on the web. While not EVERYONE complains about the same thing at the same time, they are bound to complain about something. Like your desire for Mario to end for instance. What made you decide that? Did Mario not live up to your expectations? Have you played too many Mario games, with not enough changes? The fact of the matter is, people HAVE complained. NUMEROUS people, in fact. When Reggie stands there every year at E3, he says "We have heard your wishes, and we have granted them", that means they are no doubt getting plenty of negative feedback.This was an observation, not an attack, on anyone. But for some strange reason, you felt you needed to add that little dig in there to MAKE it an attack. Everyone has their own opinions, as you've stated. And as I'VE stated, Nintendo has been trying to fulfill their wishes. And the outcome will be, and will always be, more complaining.

 

 

There's also a crap load of zombie games. Just sayin'.

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I think it's time I put in my two cents worth.

 

First of all, I don't consider myself a "modern gamer". I am just a "gamer". Secondly, sure I do like zombies (L4D is an awesome series), and I'm all up for the whole war-based stuff too, but I'm an eclectic person. I will play almost every genre of game, save sports and racing (unless of course it's in the same vein as MarioKart and DKR).

 

I have been playing Zelda and Mario since their debut almost 30 years ago. Yes... I quite literally played Mario as a baby. Sure, I died a lot, but yeah, still had fun. My only complaint with Zelda was with Zelda 2, and not that it was a sidescroller. I agree with the AVGN, with the bad parts being the level of confusion, difficulty, and retarded battle elements. However, that aside, I embraced EVERYTHING Zelda had to offer, same with Mario. I could care less what kind of game they release, so long as it is enjoyable.

 

I am also a Sonic fan, and I enjoy practically every Sonic game that exists. Sonic 2006 has a good story, great visuals, and the BEST soundtrack found in a Sonic game. The gameplay however, was terrible, as we all know... but this is what happens when a game is rushed to meet an unrealistic deadline. That is my only complaint about that game, is that it's virtually unplayable. I never once complained about the Werehog in Sonic Unleashed, or about the entirity of Shadow the Hedgehog. Sure, I questioned the logic of some of it, but at the same time, I realised, "It's a game... it doesn't have to make sense. It's a fantasy world."

 

There are a lot of people who complain, but they all lack the sophisticated logic of "JUST ENJOY THE EFFING GAME!" Ineffably, Nintendo is a business, and they will do whatever it takes to make more money. But regardless, any new Zelda/Mario/Pokemon/etc. kinda game that gets released, I will probably enjoy, with minimal to no complaints.

 

Also, yes... there are a lot of zombie games. Why? Because zombies are a very heavily touched subject. Whether it's the dead come back to life, or The Infected, there will always be an appeal. ZombiU was totally awesome, and introduced innovative ways to play. The Left 4 Dead games have a more specialised AI system, which ensures no two games will ever play the same. Dead Island is... well... it's on a tropical resort, which is also kinda cool. Resident Evil, Silent Hill, and even film versions that deal with zombies are just downright awesome, some even being terrifying, others downright laughable. Shaun of the Dead, anyone? :P

 

I would like to say that I disagree with Blinx regarding Mario. I still wanna see more. We need to keep Charles Martinet employed. Such talent is irreplacable.

 

TL;DR: I enjoy playing just about every game. Everyone has opinions, but only the true fans will continue to show love and support, without continued whining and complaining.

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